Ya-lad |
(*Bear in mind that most of the pukkah Tibetan bisyllabics, when they are not etymologizable as compounds, have as second syllable one of those important -pa -po -ba -bo -ma -mo endings that don’t count for anything right now for our present purposes.)
(*A rather subtle point I must inject here: Rightly or wrongly, we have a strong tendency to consider Tibetan syllables individually, but here we need to learn to transcend those syllable boundaries and view the word as a single unit.)
(*In my experience scholars are quite reluctant to accept Tibetan single-syllable words as borrowings. However longer words bear more phonetic data and moreover stand out in a Tibetan sentence, particularly the three-syllable words. We won’t deny single-syllable borrowings, see under Martin in the reading list below.)
Pelliot tibetain 239, click to enlarge. Can you see the word ya-lad (ཡ་ལད་) near the end of line 4? |
- We have to wonder if this word suits our method, since the 2nd syllable has what might seem to be a valid Tibetan etymology. I’ve considered this possibility and dismissed it in an appendix (see below).
Dmu-yad |
When I reached my thirteenth year, my father said, "You and Gekhö run along and go pick white gentian and tinder."
So we went. I left Gekhö to pick gentian while I went to find tinder in a further valley, where a voice spoke from the sky saying, "Shen Luga, shall I bestow the spiritual power of Bon?" The place where I stood shook, and a crevice in the rock was filled with liquid. Thinking this to be the spiritual power, I kept it secret even from my parents. (pp. 57-58)
(*Tibetanists may need to see the words in Tibetan: སྒྲུབ་ཐབས་, དངོས་གྲུབ་, and གྲུབ་ཐོབ་.)
- Although these glossaries don’t mention it, and it doesn’t lead us anywhere of significance, we have to admit that there are rare instances in which dmu-yad refers to a particularly luxurious type of cushioning material. See Namdak’s history for an instance.
Writings on the web
Ya-lad was mentioned in a Tibeto-logic blog of 2017, “Translator Trip-Ups 3 - Words.”
Note also “Turkish and Mongolian Loanwords.”
Specifically on the Turkic word thu-lum, see “Great Balls of Iron.”
“Bagel, Baklava and Bag-leb.” Bag-leb is another foreign loan that gave us the ordinary Tibetan word for ‘bread’ although this likely happened only a couple of centuries ago, and both syllables do oddly seem capable of Tibetan-internal etymology.
“Book Arts, Consecration and Letters” mentions Tibetan deb-ther, and its deep connections to ancient Greek (even Sumerian), and the disease we know as diphtheria. As far as Tibet is concerned, we only need to go back to the Mongol era. In the shortened form deb, this is now the common Tibetan word for the book format most in use in the modern world until recently, the kind bound in signatures. Traditional Tibetan book formats had, and continue to have, other names.
One Secret of the Seals begins with one of my earlier formations of the method, then finds Aramaic origins for kha-tham, a word for seal that appears in a Zhijé manuscript scribed in mid-13th-century Tibet.
For the Tibetan and Zhangzhung dictionaries that have entries for one or both words, see “Tibetan Vocabulary” and “Zhangzhung Dictionary.”
°
Writings on paper and PDFs
- Note: I tried to include a few of the more recent essays on Tibeto-Iranian relations by way of supplying more general background within which the borrowings would have taken place. Check their bibliographies for earlier studies not listed here, although the fascinating comparative cultural studies of Jivanji Jamshedji Modi (1854-1933) deserve much more attention than they ever have gotten. More on that another time.
Anonymous, Gsar-rnyed Byung-ba’i Spu-rgyal Bod-kyi Dmag-khrims Yi-ge, ed. by Pa-tshab Pa-sangs-dbang-’dus, Bod-ljongs Mi-dmangs Dpe-skrun-khang (Lhasa 2017).
At p. 20, line no. 86, you can see the word ya-lad. This imperial period military law code was mentioned in a Tibeto-logic blog from five years ago (click here to go there). John Bellezza’s Besting the Best, discusses its provenance (at p. 134) and translates large parts of it, an impressive accomplishment given its high level of difficulty.
H.W. Bailey, Dictionary of Khotan Saka, Cambridge University Press (Cambridge 1979), at p. 21, where a number of forms of the Persian word for armor are given, including the loanword srah in Armenian.
Pavel V. Basharin, “Iranian Loanwords for Weapons in Uralic Languages,” contained in: Amin Shayeste Doust, Dādestān ī Dênīg: Festschrift for Mahmoud Jaafari-Dehaghi, Farhang Moaser (Teheran 2022), pp. 37-62.
On p. 46, we see that Khanti, a language of the Uralic family, borrowed its word tă̹γ̭ər, ‘chain mail’ (< *saγɜrɜ) from Middle Iranian *zγar, ‘armour.’ Here we see an initial consonant shift z > t, and not the z > y shift we might be looking for.
Christopher I. Beckwith, The Tibetan Empire in Central Asia, Princeton University Press (Princeton 1987), particularly pp. 109-110 and 185, on use of Tibetan armor (by a Türgesh leader), and Tang Chinese sources on Tibetan chain mail armor in the early 8th century.
John Vincent Bellezza, Besting the Best: Warriors and Warfare in the Cultural and Religious Traditions of Tibet, Lumbini International Research Institute (Lumbini 2020), with ya-lad mentioned on pp. 117, 146, 163.
Joanna Bialek, “When Mithra Came as Rain on the Tibetan Plateau: A New Interpretation of an Old Tibetan Topos,” Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenländischen Gesellschaft, vol. 169, no. 1 (2019), pp. 141-153. Zoroastrian set phrases detected in the Old Tibetan Chronicles mediated by Sogdian Buddhist literature.
W. South Coblin, “A Note on Tibetan Mu,” Linguistics of the Tibeto-Burman Area, vol. 10, no. 1 (Spring 1987), pp. 166-168.
This is about the ancient Tibetan (and proto-Tibeto-Burman) word for ‘sky’ in the forms of mu, dmu, rmu and more rarely smu. For still more on this widespread Himalayan sky word, see the STEDT database #2473 PTB *r-məw SKY / HEAVENS / CLOUDS. In more recent Tibetan literature, dmu is more likely to mean the furthermost horizons of the sky rather than the sky itself.
Matteo Compareti, “Iranian Elements in Kasmîr and Tibet: Sasanian and Sogdian Borrowings in Kashmiri and Tibetan Art,” Transoxania, vol. 14 (August 2009), in about 18 pages [online publication].
Goutam Das, “Influence of Persian Identity on Tibetan Culture,” contained in: Tseten Namgyal, ed., A Copter Approach: The Trans Himalayan Tibet, History, Language and Literature (Traditional & Contemporary), Manakin Press (New Delhi 2016), vol. 1, pp. 219-235.
This is an effort to cover the entire field of Tibeto-Persian connections of various types throughout history, with Bon Religion holding a prominent place in the discussion.
A.H. Francke, A Lower Ladakhi Version of the Kesar Saga: Tibetan Text, English Abstract of Contents, Notes and Vocabularies; and Appendices, Asian Educational Services (New Delhi 2000), first published in 1905-1941. See particularly the vocabulary entries for pho-lad with meaning iron on p. 349.
Daniel Haneberg, “Die sinesischen, indischen und tibetischen Gesandtschaften am Hofe Nuschirwans,” Zeitschrift für die Kunde des Morgenlandes, vol. 1, no. 2 (1837), pp. 185-204. Tibetan tribute delivered together with a letter to Sassanian Emperor Khosrow I included armor and shields. Amazing to contemplate, since this would have happened in the 6th century CE. I hope someone will delve into this more.
Anton Kogan, “On Possible Dardic and Burushaski Influence on Some Northwestern Tibetan Dialects,” Journal of Language Relationship, vol. 17, no. 4 (2019), pp. 263-284.
This helps in thinking about possible routes of transmission from Persia to Tibetan realms, although Amdo in Tibet’s northeast is also entirely possible (via Sogdian or Khotan Saka). It also raises the possibility that Iranic language speakers, absorbed into the Tibet of Imperial Era, could have brought vocabulary items along with them.
_____, “Towards the Reconstruction of Language Contact in the Pre-Tibetan Upper Indus Region,” Journal of Language Relationship, vol. 19, no. 3 (2021), pp. 153-165. Around thirty Zhangzhung words are here identified as Indo-Iranian in their origins.
Per Kværne et al., Drenpa’s Proclamation: The Rise and Decline of the Bön Religion in Tibet, Vajra Books (Kathmandu 2023), in 656 pages, but see especially p. 170 note 419. This is a full translation, with text edition and notes, of a never-before-translated 12th-century history of Bön composed by an anonymous Tibetan author.
Per Kværne, “Dualism in Tibetan Cosmogonic Myths and the Question of Iranian Influence,” contained in: Christopher I. Beckwith, ed., Silver on Lapis: Tibetan Literary Culture and History, The Tibet Society (Bloomington 1987), pp. 163-174. Available online.
Donald J. LaRocca, Warriors of the Himalayas: Rediscovering the Arms and Armor of Tibet, The Metropolitan Museum of Art (New York 2006).
This is of the best book for seeing and knowing more about Tibetan military equipment and its history. There is a vocabulary entry for ya-lad at p. 271. Of particular interest is the concept of four mirrors type of armor known in both Persian- and Tibetan-language expressions (see p. 126).
Berthold Laufer, “Loan-Words in Tibetan,’ contained in: Hartmut Walravens, ed., Sino-Tibetan Studies: Selected Papers on the Art, Folklore History, Linguistics and Prehistory of Sciences in China and Tibet, Aditya Prakashan (New Delhi 1987), vol. 2, pp. 483-643. I use an old photocopy of the original publication in the journal T'oung Pao, vol. 17 (1916), pp. 403-552 (for the Persian loans, see pp. 474-483). This is the classic study on pre-modern Tibetan words of foreign origins. The Persian-donated Tibetan terms he discusses I’ll list here (for variant spellings, go to the source publication):
gur-gum, zi-ra, ba-dam, se-rag dur-sman, dal-ci-ni, kram, 'a-lu ba-ka-ra, 'a-lu, 'a-lu-ca, cob-ci-ni, zar-babs, sag-lad, kim-khab, tsa-dar, sag-ri, pi-shi, pho-lad, ta-ba, dig, ta-ra-tse, nal, sang-gi-ka, tambu-ra, sur-na, kab-sha, dur-bin, sang-gin, phugs-ta, pe-ban, po-la, pai-kham-ba, deb-ther, phe-rang, phya-ther.
Boris A. Litvinsky, “Armor ii. in Eastern Iran,” Encyclopaedia Iranica Online, entry last updated on August 12, 2000:
“In the Avesta, the term for armor is zrāδa- (armor, breastplate). The etymology of the word is presumably connected with Old Iranian *zar- “to cover” (cf. modern Ossetic zğær, oesqoer ‘coat of mail,’ ‘chain mail,’‘armor,’ ‘metal’). Similar terms are found in other Middle Iranian languages, such as Sogdian and Khwarazmian, and in modern languages like Pashto and Ormuri.”
Dan Martin, tr., A History of Buddhism in India and Tibet: An Expanded Version of the Dharma’s Origins Made by the Learned Scholar Deyu, The Library of Tibetan Classics series no. 32, Wisdom Publications (Somerville 2022).
We call this for short the “long Deyu” even though the work is a post-1261 CE anonymous compilation framed as a commentary on a verse work. It was this verse work alone, dating from nearly a century earlier, that was composed by the Zhijé figure named Deyu. We only recently learned of yet a third distinct history written as commentary on those verses. See the blog entry of April 18, 2023:
Persian language origins are suggested for [1] dom with meaning of tail (or tassel) in both Tibetan and Persian (p. 528 note 1952), [2] zar meaning gold in Persian, so the Tibetan zar likely has the same meaning (p. 536 note 1995), and [3] bi-ci (also bi-ji) in Tibetan deriving from Persian bijishk or some related term in an Iranic language (p. 588 note 2261, with reference to a 1979 essay of Christopher I. Beckwith).
_____, Unearthing Bon Treasures: Life and Contested Legacy of a Tibetan Scripture Revealer, Brill (Leiden 2001), particularly p. 59.
Lopon Tenzin Namdak, Rgyal Gshen Rnam-thar — The Life of Lord Gshen-rab, "excerpted from original texts by Tenzin Namdak," Tibetan Bonpo Monastic Centre (New Delhi 1971), in 2 volumes, page numbers consecutive.
The vocabulary in the back of the book, at p. 899, has this entry: dmu yad / dngos grub / bdud rtsi sogs.
_____, Snga-rabs Bod-kyi Byung-ba Brjod-pa’i ’Bel-gtam Lung-gi Snying-po — A Study of Early History of Tibet According to Bon Tradition (New Delhi 1997), p. 51:
dar dkar gyi yol ba bres / dmu yad kyi gdan bting / gser gur gyi nang du bcug nas....
Here in this passage about Gnya’-khri-btsan-po, the dmu-yad appears to be some kind of material used as a cushion (reference thanks to Kalsang N. Gurung).
Pasar Tsultrim Tenzin, Changru Tritsuk Namdak Nyima, Gatsa Lodroe Rabsal, A Lexicon of Zhangzhung and Bonpo Terms, Senri Ethnological Reports no. 76, National Museum of Ethnology (Osaka 2008), with entries for both dmu-yad and ya-lad. The entry for dmu-yad is on p. 194. Other such dictionaries given the same set of four meanings, but without the English translations you see here:
དམུ་ཡད། 1. མར་ཁུ། liquid butter, ghee. 2. ཟས་བཅུད། the essence of food, the excellent taste of food, nourishment, vitamins. 3. བདུད་རྩི། nectar, ambrosia, amrita. 4. དངོས་གྲུབ། realisation, attainment, spiritual attainment, magicial [!] powers.
Volker Rybatzki, “Turkic Words for Steel and Cast Iron,” Turkic Languages, vol. 3 (1999), pp. 56-86, particularly pp. 60-63. Bolat is one of four distinct Turkic terms for steel, and it seems to have come into use only in the 13th or 14th century, as a borrowing from New Persian. Some believe Persian got it from an Indic language. For Tibetan usages, see the listing of Francke’s book, above, as well as Appendix One, below.
D.D.Y. Shapira, “Irano-Arabica: Contamination and Popular Etymology. Notes on the Persian and Arabic Lexicons (with References to Aramaic, Hebrew and Turkic),” Xristianskij Vostok [Christian East], vol. 5, no. 6 (2009), pp. 151-183, at pp. 151-152.
It was while reading this that the foreign candidate behind the Tibetan word ya-lad first dawned on me.
R.A. Stein, “Tibetica Antiqua III: A propos du mot gcug-lag et de la religion indigéne,” Bulletin de l'École Française d'Extrême Orient, vol. 74 (1985), pp. 83-133, at p. 108 note 58 (English trans., p. 154).
Stein was probably the first and only person to mention both of our two words together in the same sentence, suggesting that the second syllable of one (yad) is a contracted form of the other (ya-lad). I think it is amazing that he came up with the idea even when I don’t believe it. A one-syllable contraction of ya-lad would be yal rather than yad — compare ra-gan, brass, in compounds reduced to rag, as in rag-dung, trumpet (lit., brass conch).
Heather Stoddard, “The Lexicon of Zhangzhung and Bonpo Terms: Some Aspects of Vocabulary in Relation to Material Culture and the Persian World,” contained in: Donatella Rossi & Samten G. Karmay, eds., Bon, the Everlasting Religion of Tibet: Tibetan Studies in Honour of Professor David L. Snellgrove, special issue of East and West, vol. 59, nos. 1-4 (December 2009), pp. 245-265.
David Templeman, “Internal Illumination: Possible Iranian Influences on Tibetan Tantric Culture,” conference presentation of 1998. I’m not sure if it was entirely published.
_____, “Iranian Themes in Tibetan Tantric Culture: The Ḍākinī,” contained in: Henk Blezer, ed., Religion & Secular Culture in Tibet (Tibetan Studies II), Brill (Leiden 2002), pp. 113-127.
F.W. Thomas, Tibetan Literary Texts and Documents Concerning Chinese Turkestan, Part II: Documents, Royal Asiatic Society (London 1951). See pp. 439-440 for a brief Old Tibetan document written on wood listing armor supplied to variously named Tibetan personnel. The word ya-lad is repeated several times.
Giuseppe Tucci, “Iran et Tibet,” Acta Iranica, series 1, vol. 1 (1974), pp. 299-306.
This early work is significant for us right now because of a paragraph or two on Persian loanwords in Tibetan on p. 301. I believe his chief example, deb-ther, a word for book, was introduced to Tibetan by Mongols while having its ultimate origins more in the Greek speaking world than anywhere else. The only other example he gives is kur-kum,* Tibetan for saffron, but even if Persian may have been the donor, the word has very ancient Assyrian roots. See Ronit Yoeli-Tlalim, “Central Asian Mélange: Early Tibetan Medicine from Dunhuang,” contained in: Brandon Dotson, Kazushi Iwao and Tsuguhito Takeuchi, eds., Scribes, Texts, and Rituals in Early Tibet and Dunhuang, Reichert Verlag (Wiesbaden 2012), pp. 53-60, at p. 57, for a better discussion showing its borrowings into several languages subsequent to its very probably Akkadian origins.
(*Actually gur-gum is the more usual spelling, although gur-kum does occur and might be earlier.)
§ § §
Appendix One
Showing how the syllable lad in ya-lad doesn’t actually have a workable Tibetan-language etymology (but see no. 3):
I searched various databases and digital lexicons for Tibetan words with second-syllable lad and came up with three varieties:
1.
Although recent loans, they are both said by Laufer to derive from Persian in the original 1916 publication of his “Loan-Words,” just as they had been already in Jäschke’s dictionary:
PHO LAD — steel. LW, p. 479. Bolad is a proper name in the Turkic-Persian realms (including Mongolia) and it has the meaning of steel. One problem with this and the following is that we are not sure if these terms gained much currency in the Tibetan realm and at what time. This word is actually used in Ladakhi version of the Gesar Epic (see Francke’s book), as the material used for his bow (and also his axe). For numerous examples of borrowings into many languages, including Tibetan, see Rybatzki’s essay listed above.
SAG LAD — broadcloth. LW, p. 477. For offerings from Mike Walter on this word, see Appendix Two.
2.
This example seems weird to me, since it’s in a modern dictionary, and looks so close to Semitic walid/yeled, ‘child.’ It also must be a borrowing, although I suspect it would be a very recent one.
A LAD — phru gu. child.
3.
In the following examples lad appear to be a genuinely Tibetan syllable in word-final position, and this deserves attention. Here it is a Tibetan verb signifying some kind of weakening or deterioration of something that had been in good shape (it is related to another verb slod). Both examples have entries in the Btsan-lha dictionary, although neither one is of common occurrence:
SGRIG LAD — nyams zhan du song ba'am nang rul byung ba.
NYAMS LAD — nyams chag.
Appendix Two
This appendix is entirely from Michael Walter, an unmodified version of his email transmission of December 6, 2024.
I believe I’ve solved sag lad:
Observations:
Tibetan /g/ must serve to transcribe a number of possible velar sounds, in particular in a coda (a closed syllable, such as VC, CVC, CVCC). These include, depending on the language, /k/, /g/, /kh/, /gh/, /q/, /gh/.
Tibetan V /a/ may stand for /u/ or /o/, as all three are “back vowels” (pronounced in the back of the throat, with the tongue raised). This is especially likely if the /u/ of the loan word is pronounced in a flat manner, sounding more like “ah” (the schwa), as in but, than the “long” /u/ in cute. Both Indic and Iranian languages have short-a vowels with this general pronunciation.
This is all the almost-linguistic analysis I’m going to do for what follows, because a) I’m not a linguist, and b) We remain ignorant of the donor language for sag lad. In addition, we must not posit a “standard” form of any language when dealing with such old data. That means that we are making assumptions about the values of vowels in languages which have been preserved in scripts ill-fitted to give us detailed data concerning those values. And, dialects and special registers of languages (i.e., Chos Skad) may contain their own vocabulary for certain categories of words. Finally, and most importantly, we don’t yet know how many intermediary languages were involved in transmitting this term, and how this affected both its phonetic and semantic structures. As time went on, as is quite usual, the term came to have several referents. It is interesting to consider that, as with Paisley, Jersey, Denim, etc., the Tibetans may have been told that this material is “Saqlat”, i.e., from the Turkish city
To pare down possible origins of sag lad, we can remove Sanskrit, Mongolian and Arabic as potential donors. The three following sources provide us with the evidence necessary to put forward a plausible explanation.
1.
Habib.2003 "Textile terms in Medieval Indian Persian texts," 543. (Several diacritics here need to be corrected.)
“90. suqlãt, suqarlãt. Qawwãs, early 14th century, defines suqarlãt, suqlãt and suqlätün, as woollen cloth of Firang (Europe). The Ā’īn, I, 110a, puts suqlãt of Rum (Turkey), Firang (Europe) and Portugal, under woollen stuffs, priced at Rs.lYi to 4 muhrs per yard. In its account of Kashmir, it is stated (ibid., I, 564) that suqlãt (so spelt) was made there "of wool, very soft.”
“Bahãr-i 'Ajam, s.v. suqarlãt, suqlãt, has an interesting notice of it: "well known cloth of wool, which is woven in Firang. In the Qâmus, siqlãt (is cloth that) was thrown over the litter carrying women... It is not known whether it is a Persian word or of some other language. Some say, had it been Persian it should have been with a gh, not q, and that Saqlätün is a city in Turkey (Rūm), where they weave suqlãt and other kinds of cloth. Some say, black and blue cloth comes from that city ... It seems that Saqlātün may in reality be suqlät-gün ["like suqlãt"], since in olden times blue was the colour of suqlãt and, then omitting the g, they have made it suqlätün. This is just speculation; it is not found in [previous] dictionaries …”
2.
Katsikadeli.2017 "Jewish Terminologies for Fabrics and Garments in Late Antiquity : A Linguistic Survey Based on the Mishnah and the Talmuds,"154n.
“Akkadian saqqu ‘sack (cloth)’, ‘cloth of goat-hair, sack’, Hebrew saq ‘sack (cloth)’, Aramaic š-q (~ Gr. sákkos ‘cloth of goat-hair, sack’).”
The etymology of a term which eventually meant ”cloth” or “sackcloth” seems to begin here.
3.
Textile Terminologies from the Orient to the Mediterranean and Europe, 1000 BC to 1000 AD.2017. Passage cited is on p. 59 in the entry by Salvatore Gaspa:
“sāgu. This term has been interpreted as a name for ‘sack’ and for a garment. In Neo-Assyrian texts it probably represents the Assyrian counterpart of the Neo-Babylonian saqqu, a designation for a sack and a garment, and the Aramaic saq, saqqā, analogously meaning ‘sack’ and ‘sack-cloth’.179 In light of the meaning of the word, it is clear that this garment was made with the coarse cloth of sacks. In Assyria, the occupation dealing with the production or trade of these garments was called ša sāgātēšu. In light of a letter dealing with Aramean troops going on a campaign, it seems that sāgus were a component of travel equipment along with leather bags, sandals, food and oil.181 The word has long been considered a 1st-millennium textile term in the Assyrian dialect. However, the fact that the same word also occurs in Middle Assyrian administrative documents from Assur demonstrates that it was already known in the 2nd millennium BC.”
•
Postscript (December 12-15, 2024)
Now that I’ve heard back from my good friend David Shulman it seems I will have to change my mind about the Persian origins theory. Looking at it again, I see every reason to regard mu'yad as inherently and natively Arabic and possibly more broadly Semitic. David wrote:
There is a bona-fide Arabic root, ayyada, which means “to strengthen, to endorse, to corroborate,” and so on. Mu'ayyad is the present passive participle, thus meaning “strengthened” or maybe just “strong” or maybe “supported.” I don’t think it can mean “prosperous.” The name of course is there in Persian as well, but I doubt that it’s of Iranian origin. I am not sure if ayyada has cognate roots in the Semitic languages. There is a verbal noun, ta'yyīd, “strengthening.” that would tend to make me think that the root is good Arabic.
Another thing, I was doing a local word-search through an out-of-print book for the word armor when I uncovered a gem. Who would have thought to find a relevant word in Old Irish? The word — errad — means armor. A later spelling might be erredh. A quick search of Googlebooks turned up several published sources. Someone should look into this and get back with us. Help us out here.
Dear Dan,
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing your ideas with those who share your interests in strange words ;)
dmu yad < mu'yad is an interesting proposal certainly worth giving it some more thought.
I'm more sceptical about the first word, ya lad. In my Compounds (vol. 2, p. 513) I pulled together Tibetan words with the first syllable ya- which clearly show some semantic overlap. The second syllable is most probably related to the set of words: lad, lhad, slad, glad etc. that oscillate around the ideas of imitation, adulteration, and mixing up. ya lad is an object that imitates (lad) the body.
It does not suffice to say that sound changes like z > y or r > l are known from some languages. You would need to demonstrate that they are well-attested in Tibetic. But they are not, to my knowledge. So, the native etymology in this case seems more appealing.
Best,
J.
Dear J, Thanks for that, I think we have to consider every possibility, including the possibility it may fit the criteria I've been setting up for north and western loanwords in Tibetan in general. I think I've seen some success with this, so it's worthy of discussion, also. I think it does suit my emerging method. Yet still another idea occurs to me. Since the lad by itself is at best likely to be occurring in a compound (otherwise lad-mo is the full and proper noun, and do you know of any real example of it being reduced to single-syllable lad?), then perhaps the ya-lad could be explained as a two-syllable contraction of a four-syllable expression. A candidate for the 4-syllable could be *ya-mtshan lad-mo, or 'amazement funtime.' I just wonder how that could result in a word ya-lad that means armor as it clearly does most of the time. And as for the sound shifts, they could have happened before entering Tibetan, likely through mediation of some Inner Asian language. Obviously, the Tibetan initial syllable ya- doesn't mean it can't be a borrowing just because we find the single syllable "ya" in some Tibetan expressions that largely indicate an upward position in space (or ya-ma, with meaning 'pair,' an Indic borrowing). So where are we? Still trying to figure it all out, trying to cover all the options. I hadn't found ya-lad in your amazing two-volume book on compounds, which I keep at arms length on my desk. Now I see it on the page you indicated, p. 513. But then I'm not sure whether it's truly imperial or just a post-imperial (definitely pre-Mongol era) borrowing. So thanks for writing and write back as soon as you can. Meanwhile Happy Winter Break. Yours, D.
DeleteDear J., As a PS, I thought up a question I'd like to ask you. If you were to continue to insist on a Tibetan-native understanding of ya-lad, would you go on to insist on an equally Tibetan understanding of pho-lad and sag-lad? Both are to my mind absolutely without a doubt loanwords. If you want to stick to the Tibetan-internal understandings, I believe you would have to take these other two words into account in your arguments. Yours again, D.
ReplyDeleteDear Dan,
ReplyDeleteWe do have ya-lad in Old Tibetan so it must be an early word. I don't know of any occurrence of lad-mo though. But it is frequently the case that disyllabic words in Classical Tibetan with the second syllable -pa/-po/-ma/-mo etc. lack this syllable in OT. So it would not be a problem to reconstruct *ya'i lad 'imitation of the upper [kind]' (?). lad as a monosyllabic word is attested in OT.
ya is sometimes used to refer to things that are considered of a better or extraordinary quality. That's how I would understand it here.
I don't see any reason to consider pho-lad and sag-lad native terms just because I consider ya-lad to be a one. You mentioned sgrig-lad and nyams-lad, and I think ya-lad is another word formed with the same morpheme -lad. pho-lad and sag-lad may well be loans. There is no reason why the syllable lad should not be occurring both in borrowings and in native terms. But of course we must be careful with our judgements.
Best,
J.
Dear J,
ReplyDeleteOf course you caught my mental mixup right away. I should have paid better attention to the blog I just wrote. I would have known, and actually did know, that it's a definite Imperial Era borrowing (both the military code and the inscribed woodslip from Miran). But a borrowing it is. You argue against taking ya- as part of a single borrowed word, so what will you do with ya-gad, yet another ya- word that I don't have an adequate explanation for yet, but by my criteria I've developed it very likely is one. I get the feeling that you haven't looked at, or don't care for, my 'method.' And I'd say just to the contrary, the arguments you give for the native nature of ya-lad could be equally applied to the 100% obvious loans pho-lad and sag-lad, which would be a reductio ad absurdam. I simply don't understand your resistance here (ya-, too, could occur in both natively generated terms and in loans, same logic, right?), apart from the fact that you once stated your speculations on that word in print and want to stick with it. I have faith you will come around eventually. I was hoping you would take the Old Irish cognate/borrowed word for 'armor' into account. I put it there purposely to provoke you, but you don't take my bait. What's up with that? If you want to employ your linguistic detective skills constructively, I would recommend going to work on the evidence in Bailey's dictionary. I think that would be a very good starting place. Or would you want to rely on a person like me who doesn't care much about comparative linguistics or sound shifts, only about Tibet and its relations with its neighbors. But please use your authority wisely. I'd like to hear what other linguists think.
Yours, D.
Dear Dan,
ReplyDeleteFirst a note on Old Irish errad/erredh. I have not found this word in the meaning "armour", instead it is unanimously glossed as "harness, apparel, dress, attire, vestment; covering" (https://dil.ie/search?search_in=headword&q=1%20errad). Its etymology is explained as "‘clothes’, so Ir., E. Ir. errad, eirred, *áir-rêd, *ari-reido-n; from reid of réidh. Eng. array comes from the Gaul. equivalent (*ad-rêdare), and Eng. ready is allied. Hence earradh, wares" (MacBain, Etymological dictionary of the Gaelic language, p. 152). This is a native term derived from the Indo-European root *reidh-.
Now on ya-lad. I'm not particularly sentimental and can give up my etymology as soon as you (or anyone else) has presented convincing arguments: 1. from which language shall ya-lad have been borrowed; 2. that either this language or any between it and Arabic underwent sound changes z > y and r > l before the word entered Tibetan; and 3. that the respective language was in contact with Tibetan early enough to allow for the occurrence of ya-lad in Old Tibetan.
For now the following forms can be considered related to Arabic zarad:
Ossetic zaldzäg (*zarčaka)
Avestan zrāδa
Armenian lw. zrah
Zoroastrian Pahlavī zryh
New Persian zirih
Khotan Saka āysīra- ‘equipment, cuirass, protective armour’ ~ ysīmā ‘covered place’ < ysīma-a- < *ysīrma- < zarmya- < *zarma < zar- ‘to cover’
Turkish zırh
Chagatai Turkish zir
Crimean Tatar zırh
Old Georgian zaradi
Classical Syriac zardā
Jewish Babylonian Aramaic zardā
Azerbaijani zireh
Urdu زره (zirih, zirah)
Malay zirah
Indonesian zirah
Uzbek zirh
(after: Bailey, Harold Walter. 1979. Dictionary of Khotan Saka, pp. 21 & 351; https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%B2%D8%B1%D9%87#Persian)
As you can see, all of them have z and r. I have not found any potential cognate in Mongolian.
Please keep in mind that you used ya-lad to introduce your "method". To argue now that your hypothesis on ya-lad is supported by your method results in circular reasoning.
As for my hypothesis, I have shown that 1. ya and lad are attested in the assumed meanings; 2. they both form compounds of the analogous form, i.e. in ya- and -lad; and 3. their joint meaning might have been lexicalised as "armour" < *"utter imitation" (cf. kom tse *"hide-twin" in my Compounds). Since it is arguments and not sentiments that make science, I think for now my hypothesis has a stronger linguistic support. But as I said, I'm happy to change my mind if linguistic evidence to the contrary has been presented.
Yours,
j.
Dear J., Thank you for all your help in falsifying my hypothesis. You are a much better scientist than I. I'm ready, as I have been all along, to say that ya-lad has not yet been entirely verified as a loanword. But your alternative hypothesis, that it is a compound, is still not convincing to me. I look for and expect more meaningfulness in my compounds. We agree, I guess, that the l <> r shift happens all over the place, particularly among the various Turkic languages (East Asian examples are of course more widely known). As I see it your only real objection is the initial bit that would require a z > y shift. Here I've offered you an example of a z > ∅, if that's what it is, in the form of an Old Irish cognate (I see that as suggestive, not as an argument clincher). But you deny that it is a cognate, and you may be right. I can't help but thinking that since you've written the book on the subject, you might be inclined to see them whenever even remotely possible. I may have a different tendency to see loanwords whenever possible, and that may come from a willingness to see connections, since connections are always possible. As a humanist I see fellow-human feeling as a positive attribute of scholarship and research, not something to be avoided. There is such a thing as science with too much ice in the middle. In digital media in particular human warmth and sympathy are if anything even more necessary if it will ever be a good system of communication, I think. So what would we be clashing about? Something important? Or just adjusting our armor?
ReplyDeleteYours, D.
PS: Following your suggestion to look at entry 1 in your Compounds (v. 1, p. 257-9), I see that you find the meaning '[rawhide] armour' for kom-tse. Whenever I see that word-ending syllable tse, I first think of Chinese loanwords, but that could just be me, and those loanwords that come to mind may not be all that old.
ReplyDeleteI see your argued-for meaning contradicts all of your Tibetan-language lexical works (you quote them in Roman transcription, but never engage with them, as if they wouldn't matter). They all agree that it means a 'leather pouch' (ko khug or longer expressions). And I think their meaning suits the one and only Old Tibetan passage, admittedly a challenging one, that uses this word better. The passage has an extended metaphor involving the making of a leather bag. This requires a needle better than a porcupine quill to pierce it, and it requires strong 'gut' or 'sinew' (rgyus) to pull it together (not the 'thread' of the English translation). In this way of reading it, there is nothing about armor, let alone a justification for your syllable-by-syllable analysis involving 'twins' (and not ephedra?) that is supposed to end up meaning armor somehow or another. I'd say kom-tse could very well be a loanword. That Tibetan word ko[-ba] for 'leather' is findable in closely similar forms, perhaps cognates stemming from the ultimate UR language (?!) in Chinese, Tocharian, ancient Mayan, and Mycenaean. Or maybe just a very widely shared loanword.
Dear Dan,
ReplyDeleteLinguistics is about finding patterns and then trying to explain why and how certain things do pattern together in the world's languages. If you look under kom-tse in my book, you'll see that I quoted a few words that 1. share with kom-tse the second syllable, 2. their first syllable ends with -m, and 3. they have some sense of "doubling". Because this word-formation follows a particular pattern (with the second syllable being originally *mtshe), I don't think that they are borrowings.
My first concern was to show which words lie behind the compounds, i.e. their etymology. It is not always straightforward to derive from it the actual meaning. This is extremely difficult and risky when we have only two occurrences of the word. I opted for "armour" because of the martial context. The passage describes in metaphorical way the construction of an arrow that kills a wild yak. The sources that I quoted give contextual meanings, based on a guesswork and not on any analysis or old glosses. That's why I didn't think it necessary to engage with them.
In general, the issue with borrowings is a difficult one for linguistics because words are borrowed without any patterns. There is always also a risk that a word might belong to a substrate language or be a so-called Wanderwort. That's why arguing for a word to be a borrowing requires a clear pedigree (where it came from) and a dating that fits the historical circumstances. Otherwise it will remain an unfulfilled hypothesis forever.
All the best in 2025!
j.