tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post6584872112693776773..comments2024-03-22T14:47:42.501+02:00Comments on Tibeto-logic: End of Tibetology in SightUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-86679425712251141292020-07-24T14:23:28.696+03:002020-07-24T14:23:28.696+03:00Re. the comment my Anonymous: The notion of "...Re. the comment my Anonymous: The notion of "milking yaks" will get a giggle out of any actual nomad. For a drink, they milk the 'bri.Mark Tatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15256120667786765293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-25281201892384997932012-06-19T23:50:53.614+03:002012-06-19T23:50:53.614+03:00Anonymous,
I do hope you will come here to check...Anonymous, <br /><br />I do hope you will come here to check if your flattering comment (with a link to Payday Loans) went up or not. It didn't. And your name is Spam.<br /><br />Thanks for writing,<br /><br />Yours,<br />DDanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10453904366382251766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-53778160003580661902011-08-08T16:55:54.259+03:002011-08-08T16:55:54.259+03:00PS: Thanks Arno, your link worked perfectly, taki...PS: Thanks Arno, your link worked perfectly, taking me directly to volume SHA.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10453904366382251766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-21693650742114794132011-08-08T16:38:46.070+03:002011-08-08T16:38:46.070+03:00Dear Journalist M.C.,
I recommend starting your o...Dear Journalist M.C.,<br /><br />I recommend starting your own blog page. I won't put up comments that have nothing to do with what's going on here, considering as I do that this is a type of spamming. Blogger is free and easy to use. You can write to your heart's content about anything at all that comes to mind. It's easy. Try it.<br /><br />Yours,<br />DDanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10453904366382251766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-47888603335427872532011-08-05T01:12:12.966+03:002011-08-05T01:12:12.966+03:00¿xoq ʇuǝɯɯoɔ ɹǝƃƃolq sıɥʇ uı uʍop ǝpısdn ʇuǝɯɯoɔ n...¿xoq ʇuǝɯɯoɔ ɹǝƃƃolq sıɥʇ uı uʍop ǝpısdn ʇuǝɯɯoɔ noʎ op ʍoɥ<br /><br />Oh, that's how!Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10453904366382251766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-41510762155865003612011-08-03T12:40:18.944+03:002011-08-03T12:40:18.944+03:00Hi Dan,
The volume you require is here.
One need...Hi Dan,<br /><br />The volume you require is <a href="http://www.istb.univie.ac.at/kanjur/volltext/tout3.php?id=kanjur/D0287Sha.txt" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br />One needs to manually adjust the url, simply clicking on the "Complete text" link does not seem to work when it comes to multivolume works in the Kanjur. Apparently some kind of bug in the database.<br /><br />The name of the required file is displayed alongwith the result of the search: kanjur/D0287Sha.txt<br /><br />Add this to the url already mentioned by H.I. above:<br /><br />http://www.istb.univie.ac.at/kanjur/volltext/tout3.php?id=<br /><br />Best, ArnoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-56950875564507877002011-08-02T19:37:54.053+03:002011-08-02T19:37:54.053+03:00Here's a small story. Years ago, let's sa...Here's a small story. Years ago, let's say nearly 20 years ago, while trying to prepare a paper for publication after the Fagernes conference, I felt I MUST locate a passage mentioned by some Tibetan authors that says that there are *18* (not 16) Great Countries in Jambu Island. Why? you ask. Good question. Let me say in defense of my sanity that it was crucial (if that's the right word) for a historical argument I was trying to make about some early (pre-Mongol period) Tibetan geographical conceptions. Or at least I thought it would be. Imagine, I spent about a week sitting in the library day after day madly scanning through page after page the 4 volumes of the Smṛtyupasthāna.<br /><br />It occurred to me that I might try this again in 2011 with the use of the Vienna search facility. After trying with "yul ljongs bco brgyad" I was ready to give up, when I thought again, wondering if "bcwa brgyad" might be the preferred way to spell it. It was. And then it popped up in no other place than the Smṛtyupasthāna (<i>Dran-pa Nye-bar Bzhag-pa</i>). Only when I went to the etext, it wasn't there. I figured out that when you go to its etext all you get is the first volume, not all four. But where are the other volumes? My quote is in volume 4 of the sûtra (with keyletter SHA in the Derge).<br /><br />It does have a little geography of Jambu Island, but unfortunately doesn't name the 18 countries... Oh well.<br /><br />I hope you enjoyed my little story.<br /><br />Yours,<br />DDanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10453904366382251766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-52220428983286288852011-07-29T21:59:19.135+03:002011-07-29T21:59:19.135+03:00Dear Arno,
Just back from up north, where it was ...Dear Arno,<br /><br />Just back from up north, where it was so much hotter. I'll have to look into those things you mentioned. I don't much believe in the paranormal ordinarily, but does that make any difference at all in noting the miraculous nature of that self-manifesting Bdungs? (The kids have a name for that verification box you have to type into and the words that show up there, but I forgot it momentarily.)<br /><br />"Anyhow, it would only be too simple to write an email to the people involved to find out more, no need for us to speculate."<br /><br />You're right, that would be too simple. I was thinking that maybe they would put their comments here on the blog, taking pity on our confusion.<br /><br />More anon, Arno!<br /><br />Your, <br />DDanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10453904366382251766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-78876779581118869542011-07-26T11:55:34.779+03:002011-07-26T11:55:34.779+03:00Once you've done a search on the Vienna site y...Once you've done a search on the Vienna site you are able to click on a tab entitled "Resources". This provides some useful information I hadn't seen when I wrote my previous comment:<br />They have in fact scanned the Sheld dkar, but:<br /><br /><i>due to © &co., no picture can be shown here. For more information, please contact us</i><br /><br />No idea if this url is stable, but I saw this <a href="http://www.istb.univie.ac.at/kanjur/sub/verifres.php?id=1134" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br />ArnoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-79188471157161294432011-07-24T23:28:51.923+03:002011-07-24T23:28:51.923+03:00Hi Dan,
I am stating the obvious, but according t...Hi Dan,<br /><br />I am stating the obvious, but according to the Viennese site the Kanjur texts are from Virginia:<br /><br /><i>Full e-text search in the Kanjur (texts from THLIB)</i><br /><br />I don't think these texts are resulting from OCR processing, they seem to have been typed in by Tibetans in Chengdu. The British Academy appears to have partially funded the Virginia project, and I just googled <a href="http://www.basas.org.uk/pdf/annual_reports/annualreport07.pdf" rel="nofollow">this British Academy report (2007)</a>, stating (p. 11) that the texts were "input". (I am an OCR amateur, but wouldn't the number of errors be much higher otherwise? There must be about 250,000 final <i>-d</i> and <i>-ng</i> in the entire collection, potentially causing a lot of trouble. Who would be proof-reading all that?) Anyhow, it would only be too simple to write an email to the people involved to find out more, no need for us to speculate. I think a little more detailed information on the website would be very useful though. Its layout and structure is confusing. I am also puzzled by their statement that:<br /><br /><i>The Kanjurs marked in blue are available in digital version (scans from the University of Vienna or from the TBRC)</i>.<br /><br />Does this mean they will eventually make these scans (e.g. London shel dkar, which to me looks also blue) available? How would that be possible considering copyright restrictions? It is still quite costly to obtain texts from certain versions/locations. Will we get free scans soon? It would certainly be great.<br /><br />There have been several projects aimed at producing scanned (digital) incarnations of the Tibetan canon in the last decade or so, I find it difficult to keep track. You have stated that ACIP's Derge scans are clearer than the Derge scans distributed by TBRC (the Karmapa print, used by most of us in the photomechanic edition from Delhi). From Peter Skilling's <i>Mahāsūtras</i>, vol. 1 (1994), I think I have learnt that the clearest print of Derge available to him back then was the one in Prague. Whenever, for example, the <i>gi gu</i> in the Karmapa ed. is broken, it is usually quite visible in the Prague copy. Of identical quality is the copy kept at Koyasan University. Scans of the latter were already available for purchase more than ten years ago from a company in Osaka called Kobayashi Shashin Kogyo (800,000 Yen). I once had the chance to look at a sample CD and compare the readings to those given in Skilling's apparatus for Prague: no difference.<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />Arno<br /><br />P.S. It is absolutely unbelievable but when I just hit the "Post Comment" button", the site demanded a "Word Verification" in form of: BDUNGS This is paranormal, isn't it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-35146459017573595212011-07-24T17:16:19.262+03:002011-07-24T17:16:19.262+03:00Hi DAN:
I don't think these are OCR scans.
...Hi DAN:<br /><br />I don't think these are OCR scans. <br /><br />As far as I understand it, ACIP has had teenage monks sitting in front of computers typing stuff in by hand for the past 20 years. The fact that there are so many errors in the scans is due to the fact that they have no one to edit the huge amount of material apart from roughly. I am guessing that this, in part, is the reason they have they have the page images at ACE seach engine.Malcolmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17565211105434785983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-42581877028514814912011-07-24T01:01:57.250+03:002011-07-24T01:01:57.250+03:00Hi H.I.,
Nice seeing you here, and thanks for the ...Hi H.I.,<br />Nice seeing you here, and thanks for the tip. The truth is that quite a few people have the Kanjur set on their computers, just that most people don't seem to know where they (ultimately) come from. I'd like to know more about how it was done (obviously some Kanjur texts are a result of OCR, but OCR of what exactly?)...<br />Your,<br />DDanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10453904366382251766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-19094940221476853712011-07-24T00:48:40.373+03:002011-07-24T00:48:40.373+03:00HiMalcolm,
I just checked out the "ace"...HiMalcolm,<br /><br />I just checked out the "ace" search engine at ACIP and it works really nicely, even gives you page images for the page where your search term occurs, which makes it somewhat better than the Vienna (although being limited to the Tanjur, which makes the Vienna better...).<br /><br />Your,<br />DDanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10453904366382251766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-33944917542562898942011-07-23T13:03:38.687+03:002011-07-23T13:03:38.687+03:00PDSz said...
Is there any way to download the Kan...PDSz said...<br /><br />Is there any way to download the Kanjur from this site?<br /><br /><br />Well, it shouldn't be too difficult. Already a quick and easy solution like <br /><br />curl -o "D_THL#1.tib" http://www.istb.univie.ac.at/kanjur/volltext/tout.php?id=[1-1108]<br /><br />does pretty well, if you don't mind a small amount of html tags etc. If you wanted to get rid of them, you might need something slightly more sophisticated. Surely Google can help you...H.I.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-63324198952249252222011-07-22T16:06:18.234+03:002011-07-22T16:06:18.234+03:00Hi Dan:
I have discovered that the Tanjur rgyud m...Hi Dan:<br /><br />I have discovered that the Tanjur rgyud material is indeed available here:<br /><br />http://www.aciparchive.org/ace/#col(tendg)<br /><br />But you need to write and ask permission for access to the rgyud section, stating your qualifications (i.e. anuttarayoga tantra initiations) and reason for needing access. <br /><br />Otherwise, this is a very nice tool for those who do not need access to the rgyud material, as it displays transliterated material and a scan of the the original text side by side of you want. And you are correct, the scan is of a very clear copy of the Derge Tanjur -- much clearly than TBRC's scans.Malcolmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17565211105434785983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-91871989549958073972011-07-20T11:34:40.569+03:002011-07-20T11:34:40.569+03:00It doesn't appear so. Of course you could cut...It doesn't appear so. Of course you could cut and paste about a 1,000 times and that ought to do it.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10453904366382251766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-10254061589975553222011-07-20T01:45:43.034+03:002011-07-20T01:45:43.034+03:00Is there any way to download the Kanjur from this ...Is there any way to download the Kanjur from this site?PDSzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14028181531501748621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-37150618407739393182011-07-19T22:29:08.458+03:002011-07-19T22:29:08.458+03:00Will the person named "a real nerd 11" p...Will the person named <b>"a real nerd 11"</b> please write a comment containing their email address? I won't post it, of course, but then I can write to you in private.<br /><br />Hi Malcolm! I understand that some of the texts were created using OCR technology on a very clear print of the Tanjur. Do you have any idea about that? The tantra scriptures of the Kanjur are themselves available in full text, it's their commentaries that are off limits. The former were not supplied by ACIP, while the latter were.<br /><br />Your,<br />DDanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10453904366382251766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-5988933519339362852011-07-17T23:52:44.099+03:002011-07-17T23:52:44.099+03:00Hi Dan:
A limitation on this search tool is the A...Hi Dan:<br /><br />A limitation on this search tool is the ACIP imposed restriction on displaying the full text of commentaries in rgyud section of the bstan 'gyur. It will tell you the Derge reference number of the text in which a line occurs, but it forces you to individually look up the reference number of the text to find the title, and one is still forced to scan through the text to find the line, and it does not identify the page number where the referenced line occurs.<br /><br />Still, it is a great tool.Malcolmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17565211105434785983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-42401689620913931522011-07-16T22:41:41.353+03:002011-07-16T22:41:41.353+03:00Hmmm. Looking back at the Kanjur & Tanjur pas...Hmmm. Looking back at the Kanjur & Tanjur passages for bdung[-ba] (and the past form bdungs[-pa]), I see that in a sizable number of occurrences of the syllable bdung it is clearly just a mistaken transcription for bdud, 'mâra' or 'delusionary spirit.' You also find it a few times as a misreading for what has to be btung, '[will] drink.'<br /><br />Just a warning — when you don't find a word with a search, it doesn't mean it's absent from the text. If you had been searching for the syllables bdud or btung you wouldn't have been able to locate those particular occurrences at all.<br /><br />And have a look, for example, at this passage from Kanjur sutra section (Derge no. 0095): <i>gzhon nu don grubakyis mes kyi gnamaru bdungs nas de'i sgra byung ba ni 'di yin no zhes zer ro/ /de nas lha dngami brgya stong dag...</i><br /><br />That ought to read <i>gzhon nu don grub kyis mes kyi gnam ru bdungs nas de'i sgra byung ba 'di yin no zhes zer ro // de nas lha dang mi (?) brgya stong dag...</i><br /><br />Three types (due to OCR?) of typos in as many lines. Some particular texts seem to have quite a few of these, and I wonder why...Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10453904366382251766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-88625555840287165122011-07-16T17:32:57.398+03:002011-07-16T17:32:57.398+03:00Hi Dan,
Next time I'll phone you for sure! Th...Hi Dan,<br /><br />Next time I'll phone you for sure! This comment posting is getting too complicated. It is also dangerous because there is little difference from writing a comment to inscribing a <i>rdo ring</i>: you cannot make corrections! But please allow me to correct the following (I will then shut up):<br /><br />"Since my mother tongue is Esperanto I thought I might translate <i>tshu rol</i> as "bend sideways". <br /><br />What I wanted to say was <i>tshur 'gugs pa</i>, obviously..... Thank you Mr. Copy and Mrs. Paste.<br /><br />All best until Shigatse (probably earlier),<br /><br />ArnoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-41526657995496228822011-07-16T16:25:36.478+03:002011-07-16T16:25:36.478+03:00Dear Arn,
I always value your comments.
That cou...Dear Arn,<br /><br />I always value your comments.<br /><br />That could help explain why what you said made me feel a little discouraged, since it appears I'm not as good a communicator as I had imagined. Still, in my defense, I wish to say I was sure that people would get it by the time they saw the words, "Now those 1st-year students will be instantly producing cutting edge research..." Now *there* is a largely untapped pool of talent for the IATS board members to consider for the 2013 seminar in Shigatse! (Scratch that in case the movie 2012 comes true.)<br /><br />I hope you won't be telling me next that things or beings that are boxed in nicely (or "defined") are therefore more alive. I think a lot more likely is the contrary. And the news of Tibetology's death has been, well, should I say, somewhat exaggerated?<br /><br />And although I'm not sure anyone needs to know this, I just dug the broom out of the closet and was thinking, 'Doesn't the bottom of the thing go in front of your left ankle, then behind your right leg up behind your back to be grasped by your right hand and brought steadily closer to the string being held in your left?' After a little testing I think that is just how I used to do it. Believe me, it's been a long time. Now back to that Tibetological paper with its (now very) short deadline.<br /><br />Yours,<br />DDanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10453904366382251766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-71142355550839774062011-07-16T13:52:29.356+03:002011-07-16T13:52:29.356+03:00Well, yes, the communications seems to be dictated...Well, yes, the communications seems to be dictated by the blogspot people. I write something, which doesn't show up, only to see that you have written something else.<br /><br /><i>tshur</i>: this is an abbreviation for <i>tshu rol</i>, isn't it? <i>tshu rol</i> means "side", not necessarily "one's own side" or does it? Since my mother tongue is Esperanto I thought I might translate <i>tshu rol</i> as "bend sideways". You translate as "hook toward yourself". I don't have a problem with that at all, actually thinking of how one bends the wooden bow to string it, your translation seems quite accurate.<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />Arno<br /><br />I am not sure if this improves my translations, but perhaps it means "to the side"? Is this better tha "sidewaysAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-50794122786891412562011-07-16T13:23:35.171+03:002011-07-16T13:23:35.171+03:00Dear Arn,
Our comments seem to be leapfrogging. ...Dear Arn,<br /><br />Our comments seem to be leapfrogging. I'm sorry I'm not able to "see" the simplicity of your reading of the dictionary entry (tshur means sideways? News to me. Are you thinking zur?), but overlooking my disability for the moment, I would like to see real examples of those meanings outside of dictionary entries. Anyway, my point is just that for pre-14th century texts the meaning of bdung-ba seems to be quite consistently 'to string' (or to bend to string, OK). I could be wrong here, and one way to check the truth of it is with the Vienna site. No dictionary (including the Tshigs-mdzod Chen-mo as far as I can see) gives the meaning that is found in those early texts.<br /><br />To quote the Lalitavistara translation of ca. 800 CE:<br /><br /><i>de nas byang chub sems dpas gzhu de blangs te stan las ma langs par skyil mo krung phyed bcas te lag pa gyon pas bzung nas lag pa gyas pa'i sor mo gcig gis bdungs so | | gzhu de de ltar bdungs pa'i tshe ser skya'i gnas kyi grong khyer chen po thams cad du sgra mngon par grag par gyur to | |</i><br /><br />Pretty impressive feat by the young Bodhisattva, stringing the strongest bow ever made (they called it Sky Horn) without even getting up from his crosslegged position. (His grandfather Simhahanu had been the last one to successfully string it, and ever since his time it had been kept unstrung in the ancestral temple.) He held it in his left hand and 'strung' (bdungs) it with one finger of his right. (I know a later Tibetan source that says he strung it with the thumb and forefinger of one hand.)<br /><br />A little further on in the Lalitavistara he actually does something with the already strung bow (<i>de ltar byang chub sems dpas mda' blangs nas gzhu de dang sbyar te bkang nas</i>). No sign of the word bdung-ba in this later context when he's doing the expectable things with the arrows.<br /><br />Did the meaning get extended or shifted to mean 'nocking' or 'drawing' [the bow in preparation for shooting] in later language? Would this explain the dictionary entries that seem so wrong to me? Coming up with real examples of usage that would vindicate the dictionary makers still has to happen for me to give them credence.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10453904366382251766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32671574.post-52726077363538114682011-07-16T13:02:54.912+03:002011-07-16T13:02:54.912+03:00I have to confess, after having followed this blog...I have to confess, after having followed this blog for several years, this is the first time (well, maybe the second) that I do not understand you. In this blog entitled "End of Tibetology in Sight" you have postulated the end of the academic discipline, asking:<br /><br /><i>What use are we Tibetologists if all the words of Tibetan literature have become instantly Googleable?</i><br /><br />Now you are telling us that someone studying English-language archival materials on Anglo-Tibetan relations is certainly a Tibetologist in your view. Why then do you fear the end of Tibetology is in sight? Someone basing his work exclusively on secondary sources won't benefit from resources like the one in Vienna anyway, because it will always be entirely incomprehensible to him. If the study of Tibetan literature is not an integral part of Tibetology why then is the latter's fate determined by much improved access to the Tibetan canon...?<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />ArnoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com